The Fractional Leader Podcast
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The Fractional Leader Podcast
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As a follow up to the previous episode on hiring , Matt & Drew bring their experience and practical takes on the things leaders need to know when it's time to let an employee go.
Navigating Hiring and Firing Decisions
Speaker 1so even though hiring is daunting sometimes , it is an optimistic sign of your business . If you get to hire people right , it's like man , we're moving forward , we've got some cash flow , we can pay people yeah , I always love .
Speaker 2I mean to me that was exciting .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love to hire we , we had initially planned to do hiring and firing as a one part episode , but it went a little longer just talking about the hiring side of things . So I was like , okay , now I have to do the Debbie Downer episode of let's talk about firing people .
Speaker 2Yeah yeah , I'm not good at that , by the way . No Well , I'm a people pleaser , and so I got a lot of ego wrapped up in the firing .
Speaker 1Do you want them to like you when they leave ? Is that what it does ?
Speaker 2Yeah , probably I want them to . Like I really want to make it work . I'm also . I internalize it's always my fault . Yeah , like I'm not . Even when I fire someone , I'm like man , if I'd have led better , if I'd have done better , if I'd have set them up Like I never , I always look at me first .
Speaker 1I would say that's healthier than not . Healthy , though , really , oh yeah absolutely .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , that's that's where I start , but , yeah , it's so tough because I don't I've in the past , I'm not so much this way now , but I don't want to be at odds with anybody in the world and the fact that I'd have to go in and and , honestly , that's a there's a high responsibility when it , like it , really impacts someone's , it does life , and I have been fired poorly before , yeah , and that has really shaped me .
Speaker 2I've been fired well before , too right , but , um , there's been times and so you have to caretake these moments because they can be in the top 10 defining moments in someone's life which is why I hate , hate doing it , you know , because I'm like , oh , this is going to suck , you know , and so so I think we go back to something we said on the last episode context matters .
Speaker 1You know , if you're letting a kid go from a fast food restaurant because he has no availability to schedule , that may not impact him the same way it would be . Hey , I've been at this company for 10 years . I thought I was a part of the team . What happened ? So context really matters when it comes to fire .
Speaker 2You may not lead an emotional and relational business . It might just be like you're not doing the job well and we need to move on .
Speaker 1It's an easy cut so . I'm not not everyone has got it . Yeah , that's right . So a couple of things I always think about . So my wife is always in the back of my head when I think about firing , because she's done her fair share of it .
Speaker 1You want Ashley in the room when you're getting fired and if you knew her , you wouldn't think , oh , ashley's the hatchet woman , like if she shows up in your office you're getting fired and she's not . But um , she has this incredible , um graceful , um clear and kind way to let someone know when a transition is coming . And she knows because she's got HR training that she had around the bases . You know , make sure there's documentation , make sure there's been as many conversations on the front end before it gets to that decision , to do everything you can to make sure someone's not blindsided by it . But at the end of the day we've talked about this Almost everybody that gets fired is blindsided by it . What's behind that ?
Speaker 2It's self-aware . I mean , I've never fired anybody who was like you know . I saw that coming and I totally agree with this decision . No , it's never that . And it doesn't matter how many improvement plans you do and how many times you document and written it up or whatever . There's mostly a self-awareness issue or you know this can get overused , but sometimes it's it's . It's just not the right fit , yeah , and I know that that can be a scapegoat line or like hey , it's just not , but that's that can be true .
Speaker 1We'll define that so obviously . As a person who leads an organization , you know what fits in your organization . But an employee sometimes doesn't understand what that word means . So if you did have time and you weren't so emotional in a moment of letting somebody go , what does it mean to fit an organization ?
Speaker 2Well , this is something you talk about a lot . It's just it's values you go back to like . Okay , if , first of all , if I don't have defined cultural values , then it's going to be really tough to know in the hiring if this person is going to be a good fit or not . But a lot of times it goes back to even things like you know , we I was an organization one time where I put together a health code , and the reason we did this for this team was because I needed them to understand certain things , and one of them is this is a creative team . They need to understand that we're going to be pretty fast moving .
Speaker 2So if you want to make movies , this is not the place for you . But if you want to be in a newsroom and you like exciting , cranking stuff out , moving , fat , urgent , you're going to love it here , right ? So that's not a right or wrong , that's just a personality type . So I might say there's no way . This gives me too much anxiety , and then other people thrive in the run and gun . So if you don't define those , those cultural values , even on the at the team level , like you want them to always submit to the greater organizational values , of course you don't have competing values at all , but you know that's a big part of it . What do you have in mind ?
Speaker 1Well , I mean some of the tools that you have to have at your disposal when you're walking . A process like this is like what are your company's guidelines for severance and transition ? So always go back to this phrase it might've been Gary Vee , it may not have been that average performance gets a generous severance .
Speaker 2It's like look , it's just not cutting it .
Speaker 1We're not just going to cut you cold , but we're going to move you out of here pretty quick . We're going to do that with this . Say that again Average performance gets a generous severance . Average performance gets a generous severance . It's like , hey , we're a high-performance organization . It's just not meeting the demands of what we have here , so we're going to move on . Here's a little stipend to get you to your next . Yeah .
Speaker 2So what are some tips ? Like , say there's someone like me out there , that's just like man , you know , and I would tend to hold onto someone way too long , you know , just because I don't want to give the bad news . And also it's it's , you know , it's a blow to a leader's ego because they're like man . This didn't work , you know . I've worked for leaders before that you could almost do anything and not get fired , because they just held real precious this idea of no one ever leaves this team . And that's back in the day where and thankfully , most organizations have moved past this , but that's back in the day where family was your family . Well , you can't fire someone in your family , you know , which I have done before by the way but you know .
Speaker 2So what are some things , as you're approaching these conversations , that are helpful ?
Speaker 1Well , I think if a leader cares , that's like where I have to start . I've never not lost sleep . I've always lost sleep over a transition . I can still remember the first time I did . It was my first like job I was managing a music store and had to let somebody go for performance . And nice guy , creative guy , had a family , had kids and it just it just wasn't working out . You know , we had set goals that didn't happen . I still think about , like , how disappointed he was to lose his job , how much weight I carried , thinking man , this guy's gonna have to figure out a way to provide for his family , like , and I think if leaders understand the weight of that decision , yeah , it makes all the next steps a lot easier and it should impact your hiring . Hey , I'm not going to hire anybody that I couldn't fire , like just knowing that's a reality for anybody you put on your team .
Speaker 2Well , and it makes it in the hiring process whether you do a 30 , 60 , 90 day evaluation . You got to take that serious , like a lot of people put that in there , but it's like the person needs to know that they really do . We're going to look at this in 30 days .
Speaker 2If it's not the right fit , we're going to move like either of us Right and they need to know like this is not just a formality , but we're really going to take these evaluation periods , if that's something your organization does . But , to your credit , you called me not that long ago after one of those hard meetings . It was just like hey , I just need to process this out loud . This just happened and I love that because it does show that you care for the person For sure , and I think a lot of times the care for the person can lead to what I would call like a leadership codependency , which is I'm trying to manage If it's overboard . I'm trying to manage your feelings , your emotions , your responses , as opposed to just saying listen , I'm going to you wouldn't say this out loud but I'm going to treat you like an adult , like I'm going to treat you like hey and I don't have to overly try to sympathize or empathize . I think to your point about how ashley does these conversations like I learned from a leader a long time ago when you go in and have a hard conversation , you get to the point quick , that's right . You don't start in a meeting and you you know , hey , how's your weekend . Whatever you bring them in and you say this is going to be a difficult conversation . So I'm going to cut to the chase and then you get right to it . It's clinical , it's surgical , right and you can communicate .
Speaker 2If you , if you're the , if you feel this way , if it's true , hey , this is . This is really tough for me and I'm sad about this and I really now , whether or not they believe you or buy it or whatever , at that point that's on them . Yeah , like you can still show compassion and you can hold both parts and say listen , I think this is the right decision and I'm also I'm really sad about it and I'm really sorry this is happening . Both can be true and genuine , and that person sitting across for you might say you're full of crap . Yeah , you know , I'm mad , I'm pissed , I hate whatever . And that's when you have to just allow people to have their own feelings or process whatever . Probably the thing that's kept me from having those decisions is I'm trying to manage that other person's emotions Right , and that's really disrespectful to that person ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and again , we keep saying this context really matters . So if you're working in corporate America , a lot of times a C-suite , a board of directors , is looking at trends . They get to fourth quarter and go we need to make sure our stock prices are right . If we're not going to catch up on the revenue and sales side of things , we're going to cut costs . That means we got to cut 10% of our headcount and I think if you are in that world , you just have to understand that's the risk you're taking , that you're A . You have to fire people like that sometimes . And if you're an employee , hey , I could get fired just as a result of a financial metric .
Speaker 2Yeah , some companies and I don't know if they still do this , but I know Facebook , they used to you basically write your job description for six months . Hey , here's what I'm going to do for the organization . I don't know at what level I think this was a little higher up but after six months , if you did your job , even if you did it really well , hey , thanks , you did what you said . Unless you can come up with okay , here's what . The next six months , the next year , whatever . There was just this understanding of , like man , we're going to treat you well , we're going to pay you well , we're going to expect great things from you and then , once it's accomplished , then our relationship is done , unless there's
Leadership and Employee Performance Management
Speaker 2something else you come up with . Now , some people may hate that , right , that's just one way of doing things . But to your point , there's a lot of clarity of like , hey , this is a six-month gig .
Speaker 1Unless I've got something , I can continue to add value to the organization , and so for a lot of the clients that we coach , I'd say small to mid-sized businesses you're talking about maybe five to 50 employees in that range . Those are the cultures where it's really difficult , cause , like you know , if you work at a AmeriCorps mega company and you know , and it's a giant office building filled with people , if someone's not in their desk the next day , you're like , okay , moving on , like if you've got a room full of 10 people working on something and all of a sudden somebody's not there anymore , like you feel it right . That's the emotional thing there that person's not here anymore .
Speaker 2What happened ? Yeah , and that that's something that we help leaders with . When we're working with a , with an organization , you know we help with the whole process of evaluating like hey , is this person ? Cause sometimes a leader can get emotional about a person and you're like , wait a minute , there may be something on the leader's side that they need to do .
Speaker 1Um , go ahead . I gave advice , literally , um , very recently I just said hey to this leader if you sold your company today and a new leader took over , right , and they got to run the business , yeah , and they didn't have the emotional connections , they didn't know your employees' stories , they didn't know , you know , about their family situations , would they keep X , y or Z employees ? Like no , they probably wouldn't . I was like , well , that's what a good leader would do is make that decision now . Yeah , wow . And so I think to go back to some more practical stuff instead of some of the more philosophical stuff is um , there's a couple of reasons people have to transition . One is that financial situation Like we talked about hey , we've got to meet this financial deadline , we've got to get more profitable , so we're going to lose 10% of our employees . We're going to move forward . That's pretty unavoidable . Those are tough .
Speaker 1But if it is a performance issue , like this person's leaning away , they're not engaged , their heart's not in it , they're not performing or they're violating our values , we have to check on that situation . So it requires management and a lot of leaders don't like to manage , and I think one of the most important tools a leader has at their disposal is a one-on-one meeting , and so few leaders do it Really . Yeah , I think people avoid it . Like the plague is like , oh , just can you just go do your job , let me know when you got a problem . And I think the most important development tool a leader has is a one-on-one meeting and you check in engagement , you check relational , you check um performance , all that stuff . You can really understand what employee you know is leaning in or leaning away . But my thing is like firing is not the first step , like that is not first base .
Speaker 1Right , we're going to go , hey , what's going on personally , like , is there , is there something at home ? Is somebody sick ? Are you sick ? Maybe not ask those questions specifically , but try to understand . Is there a reason performance has dipped ? Okay , no , it's none of those things . Um , are you not as satisfied um , and engaged in the job because of you know something we're doing ? You try to understand that and then you know , after you take a couple of steps to try to understand what's really going on , because at some point you hired this person and said , hey , this person would be a great fit on the team , we need them on our team , let's do this . And now you're going . Oh , they don't fit anymore . We'll try to understand why that's the case . Do your best , and then you know you kind .
Speaker 1Performance improvement step of the process where you've documented these conversations . You're making sure from like a legal and HR standpoint , you've done all the right steps and I don't know the percentage . I think it's super low . I think I've read somewhere , like in HR today or something like that , that 90% of people put on a performance improvement plan Don't come back Like it is the kiss of death .
Speaker 2Well , I was going to ask you , like why do that , Right ? What's the point in doing that ?
Speaker 1Why do you think I don't know ?
Speaker 2Well , I think it gives the person the opportunity to adjust . Yeah , because what you don't want and we've said this before Every person we've ever fired always blindsided , even with an improvement plan . It's just like they're not showing up and intentionally trying to be bad at their job most of the time Most people are doing the best they can .
Speaker 2It's just not working , for whatever reason , and I don't know . I think you really should evaluate in your organization . I'm hoping . I guess my hope would be if you're having consistent one-on-ones , yeah , and those one-on-ones are effective and there's clear communication , then an improvement plan should be happening all along , micro adjustments , tweaking all along like it should just be .
Speaker 2Like hey , this isn't working to me .
Speaker 2The improvement plan in some ways you're exactly right that's just the warning shot of like hey , you're about to get fired , right , right , because most people can't adjust if you've been having those conversations . I think that improvement plans a lot of times can be used by organizations who are not willing to have the one-on-ones and the ongoing conversations for adjustment . So they have this formal process , they put an improvement plan in place . That is what's kind of blindsiding to the employee . And now you've got this disgruntled employee who knows they're on an improvement plan and they're not getting any better because you've already given a pattern of not having hard conversations along the way . Right , and so I'm not saying I'm against improvement plans , but maybe I am . I don't know , um , but I just think don't use an improvement plan in place of what you were saying consistent one-on-ones , where you're giving clarity and feedback and and chances are , you're going to know a lot sooner and that employee is going to know a lot sooner . This isn't working If those conversations are happening every single week .
Speaker 1And here's probably the number one . Tell here's probably the number one . Tell that firing is more emotional than it needs to be . Oftentimes , when you transition a low performer , the rest of your team goes . Why did it take you so long to do that ? Right , Because they saw it right . Everybody on the team's like man . This person is not engaging , they're not responding in communication . They're constantly behind in deadlines , Like I'm working my butt off and I'm here . They're not working their butt off and they're still here .
Speaker 2It's so demotivating A lot of times your team feels that a lot before you do . That's right .
Speaker 1As a leader , yeah . And so you're like gosh , I don't want to do this , I don't want to fire somebody , I have to hire somebody . It's going to take forever , and so you delay what's inevitable , and sometimes you can lose the team in that process because they're so frustrated that you're not getting rid of the dead weight . That's a great point .
Speaker 2I one of the hardest fires I've ever made . Um , I had people come up to me afterwards and thank me and say , hey , we're really sad that this happened . It actually if . If you fire someone when it's right right , we're not talking about the person just going out and , just you know , hacking people just because they're bored , but when it's the right decision , it'll actually build trust with your team and your peers . They'll come to you and say , hey , listen , we know that was a tough decision . And if you're open and honest as a leader , they're going to tell like hey , you didn't make that .
Speaker 2flippantly Like you felt it too and they're going to come and say , hey , we , we see that you really struggle with that decision and I actually I was a learning lesson . I actually had a couple of people that were close to this person come to me and say , hey , I see that that was a really hard call , but I respect you for making that back , making that decision
Navigating Codependency and Control as Leaders
Speaker 2.
Speaker 1That's so good . Maybe we wrap with this this idea of codependence that are um self-worth or value comes from the relationship you have with the person you're firing , and I think it's Jim Collins talks about , you know , freeing people to go to their next like sometimes , yes , it could be one of those like significant top 10 significant moments in their life that I got fired . But hopefully on the other side of that is opportunity , reinvention , invigorating . Like no one likes to get kicked in the teeth , right , no one wants to be like I got fired , I failed , but for a lot of people that's the catalyst to get them to what is next . And if you have confidence in whether it's in God or in the universe or something , they can go on and succeed somewhere else and it may be the motivation they need to succeed at the next thing .
Speaker 2So should I be expecting thank you cards from everyone who's doing well right now that I fired , or yeah ?
Speaker 1just let's put the address on the podcast , drew Powell , po Box . You're welcome everyone , one , two , three , four . But why is it that , when we are more emotionally engaged in these firings than we need to be , that we can't see how clear that is , that we can't help them get to their next ?
Speaker 2Well , I think most of us as leaders , if we're being honest , we struggle with control , right . That's almost the shadow side of leadership . In some ways , like most great leaders , they want to be in the driver's seat , they want to lead right . So it's like I'm not saying that's always a bad thing . But the shadow side is I can tend to be a control guy and I want to control people's future , their destiny , how they , how they respond . I want to control , you know , I want you know , I want to feel good by how they respond . I want to control all those things , which is , ultimately , it's codependence , right , and so in that relationship . So I think having to trust and say I'm going to make the right decision and I don't have to be in control of what's next is really tough for me and for most leaders .
Speaker 2But I think that's where it goes back to , where you say you can , you can surrender and say I'm going to make the right next decision . I don't know what this is going to mean for this person , but I'm going to trust , at the end of the day , that the universe is kind , like and that's a big philosophical shift for a lot of people like is the universe kind is god , kind are good things in store for me . Like those things and I'm not talking like the you know evangelical , like your best is yet to come , bs . I'm talking about like , hey , things work out for those who work hard and you know , and do the right thing and treat people well , like the universe is a kind place and so if you have that worldview , you can surrender and not have to be in control of someone's future .
Speaker 1That's so good . Thanks for leaving us on a hopeful , optimistic note .